My original correction was edited on the basis that there were no sources for the debates being anywhere other than the Church. I question not but that it is all your desires. I desired that those that had engaged in it [might be included]. If it be not against the Engagement, you will find that in it which you will find from your engagements. I am resolved to give my birthright to none. Truly we may find this silence within us, and let us but search our own spirits with patience, and look by the lightd of God within us, and we shall find that we have submitted the Spirit of God unto the candle of reason, whereas reason should have been subservient unto the Spirit of God. On 8 November, he proposed and carried a motion that the meeting of the Army Council should be temporarily suspended. Truly this is all [that question amounts to]: whether, honour, title, estate, liberty, or life, [if] the Commons have a mind to take it away by a law, [they may do so]; so that to say you are contented to leavei King and Lordsj all, this [negative] being taken away, is as much as to say you are to allow them nothing. I shall only add these two things. [Otherwise] if they be injured they have not a remedy. [2] The report of the meeting concludes with the names of the committee appointed (Cromwell, Ireton, Hammond, Deane; Colonels Rainborough, Rich, Scroope, Tomlinson, Overton, Okey, Tichborne, Sir Hardress Waller; Messrs. Sexby, Allen, Lockyer, Clarke, Stenson, Underwood), and with its terms of reference: ‘To confer with the Agitators of the five regiments, and such gentlemen as shall come with them, about the “Engagement” now brought in, and their own declarations and engagements.’ The Agitators, here mentioned, are the newly appointed Agents of the five regiments; the ‘Engagement’ is the set of proposals (otherwise referred to as the Agreement) handed in by the Agents. And upon that ground I shall speak something in answer to that which your Honour last spake. (a-114 h)] tr [see p. 113, n. 2], with some alteration of order [see below], from after Ireton: [That] if a Lord shall bee accused & by a Jury found guilty hee will Expect to bee tryed by his Peeres [p. 116]; [(b)] First part of Wildman’s speech has been transposed from this position [b] to 114 g-h and 114 b-d, because it deals with a later proposal. The Parliament shall not meddle with a soldier after indemnity [if] it is [so] agreed amongst the people; whereas between a parliament and [a] king [the soldier may lose his indemnity]. Though when it comes to particulars we may differ in the way, yet I know nothing but that every honest man will go as far as his conscience will let him; and he that will go farther, I think he will fall back. For my part, it may be thought that I am against the King; I am against him or any power that would destroy God’s people, and I will never be destroyed till I cannot help myself. We talk of birthright. For the later part of that noble gentleman’s words, this may be said to them: whether this consideration may [not] be paramount to all engagements, to givee the peoplef what is their due right. When those are passed, then wei say that, ‘these things having the King’s concurrence, we desire that his right may be considered.’ There were many other grievances and particular matters [of] which we did not think [it] so necessary that they should precede the settling of a peace, [the lack of] which is the greatest grievance of the kingdom. Truly, therefore, I say for my part, to go on a sudden to make such a limitation as that [to inhabitants] in general, [is to make no limitation at all]. You see what they are ([producing the printed volume of Army Declarations1 ]); and when we look upon them we shall see whetherf we have been in a wrong way, and I hope it will call upon us for the more double diligence.g. The consideration that I had in this Army and amongst honest men—not that it is an addition of honour and profit to me, but rather a detriment in both—isc the reason that I speak something by way of apology first. But the statement does not entirely harmonize with the tenor of Cromwell’s utterances in the Debates, and I suspect that what he said was: ‘And though [I] myself do concur with them, perhaps, upon some ground [of hope] that God will do so.’ The repetition of such a phrase as ‘concur with them’ is very common in the MS. [1] Wildman has been criticizing a speech ascribed by MS. to Cromwell. I did look over for my part all [the] things [contained] in those three declarations. They may give him an absolute power or a limited power. Now let us consider where our difference lies. And if I thought otherwise of the Army, I protest I should have been ashamed of the Army and detested it; that is, if I had thought the Army had been of that mind [that] they would let those propositions sent from both kingdomsc be the things which should be [final] whether [for] peace or no, without any further offers; and when I do find it, I shall be ashamed on ’t, and detest any days’ condescension with it. Firth notes that the report at this point is ‘hopelessly confused.’ I have amended it in the general sense of his paraphrase; [(d-e)] tr were a compliance or; and substituted for itt. On the other hand, if the thing were not lawful for me to engage, or [if it were] a duty for me to have done to the contrary, then I am not bound positively and actively to perform it. By the same rule, show me why you will not, by the same right of nature, make use of anything that any man hath, [though it be not] for the necessary sustenance of men.k Show me what you will stop at; wherein you will fence any man in a property by this rule. I hope that none in the Army will say but that I have performed my duty, and that with some success, as well as others. The paper says that this [present] Parliament is to continue a year, but will the great burden of the people be ever satisfied with papers [whilst] you eat and feed upon them? The kingdom’s cause requires expedition, and truly our miseries (with our fellow soldiers’) cry out for present help. Therefore, I say, let us show the spirit of Christians, and let us not be ashamed to declare to all the world that our counsels and our wisdom and our ways, they are not altogether such as the world hath walked in; but that we have had a dependency upon God, and that our desires are to follow God, though never so much to our disadvantage in the world if God may have the glory by it. And truly, for that gentleman that did take so much offence, I do not know why he should take it so. What we thought in our consciences to be essential to the peace of the kingdom we did putj preceding to the consideration of the King’s personal right; and the concurrence of [the King to] those is a condition without which we cannot have any right at all, and without [which] there can be no peace, and [we] have named [it] beforec the consideration of the King’s rights in the settling of a peace, as a thing necessary to the constitution of a peace. Take away that, I do not know what ground there is of anything you can call any man’s right. Now I wish we may all consider of what right you will challenge that all the people should have right to elections. But if, while there is not so clear a light, any person passes an engagement, it is judged by them (and I so judge it) to be an act of honesty for that man to recede from his former judgment, and to abhor it. And truly I wish we may be very wary what we do; and let us take heed of rejecting any of the Saints of God before God rejects them. If the thing [there] insisted upon beg too limited, why perhaps there are a very considerable part of copyholders by inheritance that ought to have a voice; and there may be somewhat [in that paper] too [that] reflects upon the generality of the people [in denying them a voice]. The business of the Engagement lies upon us. There may be care [had to secure a proper representation]. The motion is, that there might be a seeking of God in the things that now lie before us. To me, if there were nothing but this, that there is a constitution, and that constitution which is the very last constitution, which if you take away you leave nothing of constitution, and consequently nothing of right or property, [it would be enough]. I speak for myself, I disavow all, and I am free to act, free from any such——. For my part I spoke against every man living, not only against yourself and the Commissary, but [against] every man that would dispute till we have our throats cut,d and therefore I desire I may not lie in any prejudice before your persons.e I profess, if so be there were none but you and the Commissary-General alone to maintain that argument, I would die in any place in England, in asserting that it is the right of every free-born man to elect, according to the rule, Quod omnibus spectat, ab omnibusftractari debet, that which concerns all ought to be debated by all. To that point I stand clear, as I have expressed. I have not the same apprehensions that two or three days will undo us, but I think a very little delay will undo us; and therefore I should only desire—it may be because I have spoken some other may answer me—the less we speak, it may be the better. The Grandees responded by inviting the New Agents and their civilian supporters to debate their proposals before the General Council of the Army. When men come to understand these things, they will not lose that which they have contended for. For all that hath been said hath been [as to engagements] between party and party: if two men should make an agreement and the like, and there were no living one withd another if those engagements were not made [good]. But that gentleman, and I think every Christian, ought to bear that spirit,d to carry that in him, that he will not make a public disturbance upon a private prejudice. And it hath so wrought with me that [though] I cannot run precipitately to work, yet I dare not open my mouth for the benefit or upholding [of] that [kingly] power.a I think that hath been the voice of God, and whatsoever was contradicted [by events] was [only] our precipitate running on, our taking hold of an opportunity before it was given. And therefore it was desired that we might consider, [before] we could come to these papers,i in what condition we stood in respect of former engagements,b however some may be satisfiedc that there lie none upon us, or none but such as it’s duty to break, it’s sin to keep. We have said, we desire [first] to have the constitution of the supreme authority of this kingdom reduced to that constitution which is due to the people of this kingdom, and, reducing the authority to this, we will submit to it, we will acquiesce, we will cast our share into this common bottom; and if it go ill with us at one time, it will go well at another.3 The reducing of the supreme authority to that constitution, by successived election, as near as may be,e we have insisted upon as an essential right of the kingdom; and no man can accuse the Army of disobedience, or holding forth a principle of disobedience, upon any other ground. The Law of God doth not give me property, nor the Law of Nature, but property is of human constitution. I will not oppose, though I be not satisfied to join with them. On the other hand, I think that he that would decline the doing of justice where there is no place for mercy, and the exercise of the ways of force, for the safety of the kingdom, where there is no other way to save it, and would decline these out of the apprehensions of danger and difficulties in it, he that leads that way, on the other hand, doth [also] truly lead us from that which is the law of the Spirit of Life, the law written in our hearts. Authority was to be vested in the House of Commons rather than the King and Lords. Then we shall go to clear reason. And therefore if [in] that which I engage to, though the thing be unlawful for me to do, [yet] another man be prejudiced [by my not doing it, I may not merely renounce my engagement]. If this be all the effect of your meetings to agree upon this paper, there is but one thing in this that hath not been insisted upon and propounded by the Army heretofore, [in the Heads of the Proposals, and] all along. We say, those grievances are not so necessary [to be remedied] as that the remedying of them should be before the settling of the peace of the kingdom. I am not at all against a committee’s meeting; and as you say—and I think every Christian ought to do the same—for my part I shall be ready, if I see the way that I am going, and the thing that I would insist on, will destroy the kingdom, I shall withdraw [from] it as soon as any. The committee met at my lodgings as soon as they parted from hence. That which makes it unlawful originally and radically is only this: because that man is in covenant with me to live together in peace one with another, and not to meddle with that which another is possessed of, but that each of us should enjoy, and make use of, and dispose of, that which by the course of law is in his possession, and [another] shall not by violence take it away from him. We have engaged in this kingdom and ventured our lives, and it was all for this: to recover our birthrights and privileges as Englishmen; and by the arguments urged there is none. And I think: if we do [take into] account all the sending of laws heretofore to be corroborated by him, and if his denying of some of them—not absolutely denying but advising—if these have not at all prejudiced [the right of] the people against his negative voice, so the sending of propositions now for his assent cannot prejudice the right of the people more than all their sending [laws to him] before. I shall not reply anything at present, till it come to be further debated, either concerning the consequences of what is propounded, or [the contents] of this paper; but I conceive the chief weight of your Honour’s speech lay in this, that you were first to consider what obligations lay upon you, and how far you were engaged, before you could consider what was just in this paper now propounded; adding that God would protect men in keeping honest promises. If there remain nothing else [needful] but present action,k [let us be doing]—I mean, doing in that kind, doing in that sort. Whereas now almostg all are troubled with [the] King’s interests, if this were settled the Parliament should be free from these temptations.h And besidesi —which for my own part I do suppose to be a truthj —this very Parliament, by the King’s voice in this very Parliament, may destroy [us], whereas [then] they shall be free from temptations and the King cannot have an influence upon them [such] as he nowa hath. If it may be purged, and an House still remaining,f whether the major part of the remainder be such persons as are desirous of giving satisfaction to our, or the kingdom’s, just desires? Truly I think we are utterly undone if we divide, but I hope that honest things have carried us on thus long, and will keep us together, and I hope that we shall not divide. That I think is due to a man by birth. The New Model Army closed ranks as a second civil war threatened. Possibly not for it, neither: possibly I may not have so real a regard to the peace of the kingdom as that man who hath a permanent interest in it.e He thatf is here to-day, and gone to-morrow, I do not see that he hath such a permanent interest. I see that though libertyb were our end,c there is a degeneration from it. I have seen this paper, and upon second reading of it I set my hand to it, that we may not lie as drones to devour their families. If [so], then upon that account there is no person that is under a just government, or hath justly his own, unless he by his own free consent be put under that government. They have sent two soldiers, one of your own regiment and one of Colonel Whalley’s, with two other gentlemen, Mr. Wildman and Mr. That which he speaks was, that at such a meeting as this we should wait upon God, and [hearken to] the voice of God speaking in any of us. There are many thousands of us soldiers that have ventured our lives; we have had little propriety in the kingdom as to our estates, yet we have had a birthright. And let me tell you (though I shall be content to lose my arrears to see the kingdom have its liberty —if any man can do it—unless it be by putting our liberty into the hands of those that will give it away when they have done [with it]; but I say whatf I do thinkg true in this): Whoever talks either of [arrears gained by] the endeavours of the soldiers or of any other indemnity [won] by the sword in their hands, is [for] the perpetuating of combustions; so that word cannot take place [of], and does not suppose, the settling of a peace by that authority which hath been herei the legislative power of the kingdom, and he that expects to have the arrears of the soldiers so, I think he does but deceive himself. And for that purpose we desire to do nothing but what we present to your consideration. If we should put it to the King as his act, [yet] the Parliament have declared it and asserted it, that it is their right that the King ought not to deny any [laws they offer to him]; it is his oath. See p. 113, note 1. It hath been said, that if a man be engaged he must perform his engagements. And [I know] that we have been carried on with a confidence in him: we have made him our trust, and we have held forth his name, and we have owned his hand towards us. Let us go the quickest way to work [and not fear lest we start] before we fall into the right way. I [too] shall desire [that] before the question be stated it may be moderated as for foreigners. This paper I saw by chance, and had no resolution to have been at this Council, nor any other since I took this employment upon me, but to do my duty. I confess my ignorance in those engagements; but I apprehend, at least I hope, that those engagements have given away nothing from the people that is the people’s right. That truly I think,a let the difficulties be round about you—have you death before you, the sea on each side of you and behind you—[and] are you convinced that the thing is just, I think you are bound in conscience to carry it on; and I think at the last day it can never be answered to God, that you did not do it. Various Authors Related Topics. 437-8, 445-9. If a man hath all he doth desire, [he may wish to sit still]; but [if] I think I have nothing at all of what I fought for, I do not think the argument holds that I must desist as well as he. And I think if you do bring this to a result it were well. In a series of debates with Oliver Cromwell in Civil War England of 1647, the Levellers argued for democracy for the first time in British history. This I did deliver [so], and not absolutely. [We have professed] that we have been ready to follow his guidance; and I know it hath been so in many things against our own reasons, where we have seen evidently God calling us. The legislative power had been acknowledged [hitherto] to be in the King with [the] Lords and Commons; anda considering that, and what [indeed] you said before was a[nother] scandal [laid upon you], that you propounded to bring in the King with his negative voice, [you seem to restore him to his controlling part in the legislative power. Web have laboured to please a king, and I think, except we go about to cut all our throats, we shall not please him; and we have gone to support an house which will prove rotten studs1 —I mean the Parliament, which consists of a company of rotten members. If Mr. Wildman think fit to [let me] go on without taking an advantage [to object] to every particular as it is read, [he may show afterwards] what [things] they are that do render these propositions so destructive and [that] give the King and Lords such an interest as they never had before—if he will take them upon his memory and [not] by the way. I shall begin with the last first. I do very much care whether [there be] a king or no king, lords or no lords, property or no property; and I think, if we do not all take care, we shall all have none of these very shortly. I think if so be that this business of the negative voice be all the dispute, we shall all agree in it; fork it appeared by what you spake the other night, that he ought to have his negative voice taken away. It is said, there are many plausible things in it. Whether it be a shadow or no, I think it is a substance when nothing shall be made but by address to the King. [We said], let us speak one to another what God hath spoken to us; and, as I said before, I cannot say that I have received anything that I can speak as in the name of the Lord—not that I can say that anybody did speak that which was untrue in the name of the Lord, but upon this ground, that when we say we speak in the name of the Lord it is of an high nature. Buta it seems as much to us in this as anything, we are not all of a mind.b And for our parts we do not desire or offer you to be with us in our seeking of God further than your own satisfactions lead you, but only [that] against to-morrow in the afternoon (which will be designed for the consideration of these businesses with you) you will do what you may to have so many as you shall think fit, to see what God will direct you to say to us, that whilst we are going one way, and you another, we be not both destroyed. Sir, I was saying this: we shall much deceive ourselves, and be apt to deceive others, if we do not consider that there area two parts of justice. The debates began on 28 October 1647. We agree thus far. Sir, I desire, [if it be possible], that some question may be stated to finish the present work, to cement us [in the points] wherein lies the distance; and if the thoughts [be] of the commonwealth [and] the people’s freedom, I think that’s soon cured. Perhaps it may be offered in that [other] paper1 too lamely. And therefore I desire we may not precipitately run on, but wait upon God, that in the issue we may not see that God hath [not] spoken to us; and if the Lord hath spoken to us I pray God keep us from that sin that we do not hearken to the voice of the Lord. It may be too soon to say it, [yet ’t]is my present apprehension: I had rather we should devolve our strength to you than that the kingdom for our division should suffer loss. The manuscript record of the Putney debates—which is based on the shorthand notes of William Clarke, secretary to the general council, and a team of stenographers—provides only a partial account of the proceedings, which took place between 28 October and 11 November.There are lengthy, if incomplete, transcripts of the debates on 28 and 29 October … That this General Council may be appointed [to meet] against a very short time, two days—Thursday—if you would against Saturday, or at furthest against Monday; that there might be a committee out of this Council appointed to debate and consider with those two gentlemen, and with any others that are not of the Army, that they shall bring, and with the Agitators of those five regiments; that so there may be a liberal and free debate had amongst us, that we may understand really, as before God, the bottom of our desires, and that we may seek God together, and see if God will give us an uniting spirit. They gave us this answer, that they would willingly draw them up and represent them unto you. [Again] you may admit strangers by this rule, if you admit them once to inhabit, and those that have interest in the land may be voted out of their land. Emendation supplied by Rich’s speech [p. 63]; [(c-d)] tr there may bee a way thought of; [(f-h)] tr lay aside the most fundamentall Constitution; [(c)] Firth thinks that ‘only the first words of some sentences are given.’ I find the sense much more complete, but the order of the sentences, and even the phrases, in unrelieved confusion. And I hope thata with such an heart we have all met withal. The kingdom and Army calls for expedition. I shall but humbly take the boldness to put you in mind of one thing which you moved enow. Yet [I am troubled] when I do consider how much ground there is to conceive there hath been a withdrawing of the presence of God from us that have met in this placeh —I do not say a total withdrawing; I hope God is with us and amongst us. For my part [I think that] if the constitution of this kingdom shall be established as formerly, it might rivet tyranny into this kingdom more strongly than before. 429-36. That he had not the paper of what was done upon all of thea [matters discussed]. In that I give King and Lords [no more than an opportunity] to do me a courtesy if they will—. I do think the poor and meaner of this kingdom—I speak as ina relation [to the condition of soldiers], in which we are—have been the means of the preservation of this kingdom. And therefore, till I see that, I shall use all the means [I can], and I think it is no fault in any man [to refuse] to sell that which is his birthright. Follow the course of the English Civil War with this interactive map of the key battles. I do not find anything in the Law of God, that a lord shall choose twenty burgesses, and a gentleman but two, or a poor man shall choose none: I find no such thing in the Law of Nature, nor in the Law of Nations. And so, on the other side, if a man were to demonstrate his [right to] property by divine law, it would be very remote.j Our [right to] property descends from other things, as well as our right of sending burgesses. But if you will go upon such a ground as that,a although a better constitution was [really] offered for the removing of the worse, yet some gentlemen are resolved to stick to the worse [and] there might be a great deal of prejudice upon such an apprehension. Perhaps we conceive we have; and therefore this is that I may saye —both to those that come with you, and to my fellow officers and all others that hear me: that it concerns us as we would approve ourselves before God, and before men that are able to judge of us, if we do not make good [our] engagements, if we do not make good that that the world expects we should make good. To the method of our proceeding. In the time before the Conquest.b Since the Conquest the greatest part of the kingdom was in vassalage. It doth lay the foundations of soldiers’ [freedom], whereas they found a great uncertainty in the Proposals, [which implied] that they should go to the King for an Act of Indemnity, and thus the King might command his judges to hang them up for what they did in the wars, because, the present constitution being left as it was, nothing was law but what the King signed, and not any ordinance of Parliament [without his consent]. We are now engaged for our freedom. There is a great deal of equivocation [as to] what is just and unjust. I think our disputings will not do the thing. I desire to know what the gentleman means concerning particular engagements: whetherb he means those that are in this book? Any man that makes a bargain, and does find afterwards ’tis for the worse, yet is bound to stand to it. The council included two officers and two soldiers (‘agitators’) elected by each regiment, and the central question was whether to continue seeking a negotiated settlement with the king. If it be laid down for a rule, and if you will say it, it must be so. No money can be raised, no war raised, but by those that the Commons shall choose. No man offered a syllable or tittle [to that purpose]. And as for the Parliament, too, I think those that know the beginnings of these principles that we [set forth] in our declarations of lated for clearing and vindicating the liberties of the people, even in relation to Parliament, will have reason [to acquit me. If there be a possibility [then] of the Parliament’s offering those things unto the King, that may secure us, I think there is much may be said for the[ir] doing of it. )—perhaps left for other speeches, which were not transcribed. But now I shall speak something of it.e. To that I must only offer this. Apparently it was concerned with completing the proposals now about to be read. I heardg (but I had no such testimony as I could take hold of) that there are meetings daily and contrivances against us. That which I have declared [is] my opinion [still]. they were happy & Contented with itt, and; [(b-c)] tr which does satisfie the Kingdome [as]; [(d)] + as, followed by the transposed phrase b-c; [(c-d)] tr shall nott bee offended [and]; [(b)]was + to which you do well to take heede; [(b-c)] tr that doe butt hold Compliance with them; [(b-c)] tr from after c-d in its original position [see below]; [(c-d)] tr itt is unjust they should have that power, and there immediately followed by b-c; [(e-f)] I adopt Firth’s suggestion that this is an interruption by Wildman, and correct his reading; [(f)] There are spaces for completion of Latin phrase; [(g-h)] tr any thinge of the Kinge’s Declaration to that purpose [that]; [(l-m)] tr for the Establishment of the Kingdome. Yet I should think, at least, if the breach of that engagement be to the prejudice of another whom we have persuaded to believe by our declaring such things, [so] that wec led them to a confidence of it, to a dependence upon it, to a disadvantage to themselves or the losing of advantages to them; [I say, I think then that] though we were convinced they were unjust, and satisfied in this gentleman’s principle, and free and disengaged from them, yet we who made that engagement should not make it our act to break it. . That which Lieutenant-Colonel Goffe offered hath [made] a very great impression upon me; and indeed I must acknowledge to God, [and] tog him, that as he hath several times spoke in this place (and elsewhere) to this purpose, he hath never spoke but he hath touched my heart; and that especially in the point [of] that one thing that he hints.h In the time of our straits and difficulties, I think we none of us—I fear we none of us—I am sure I have not—walked so closely with God, and kept so close with him, [as] to trust wholly upon him, as not to be led too much with considerations of danger and difficulty, and from that consideration to waive some things, and perhaps to do some things that otherwise I should not have thought fit to have done.i Every one hath a spirit within him—especially [he] who has that communion indeed with that Spirit that is the only searcher of hearts—that can best search out and discover to him the errors of his own ways and of the workings of his own heart. 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